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Richard Clark

J'aime pas les blogs mais comme j'aime le mouton...

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Don't use Visual Basic .NET, use C# (Microsoft said)

I am VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY ANGRY (I didn't use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V to write this sentence J))

This concern Microsoft DirectX Managed extensions.

This week, Soma publish on his blog that Microsoft support Visual Basic langage at 120%!!! I had a diner with him 1 month ago, if I knew...

So what's the problem ?

Download Microsoft DirectX 9.0c SDK Summer 2004 update and you will know.

First :
DirectX 9.0b managed extensions and 9.0c are incompatibles. DirectX team rename some classes like TextureManagers in TextureManagerCollection (did they know that there is a lot called FxCop if I remember J that can check things like thats ?). It is not really important (we all know that classes names can changed one year later, no ?) but what is strange is that SDK 9.0b examples can't work with DirectX 9.0c due to those changes. If you wrote a project from SDK examples, you must rewrite everything because of that.

Second:
And this is the principal reason of my anger : For Microsoft DirectX Team, Managed extensions == C#. You don't have any project example in Visual Basic .NET.

In DirectX Sampler Viewer, filters are : C++, Managed languages. And Managed languages == C#. In DX Sampler Viewer, when you click on "Install project...", you create a C# project.

In documentation, when they talk about Managed Language, it is always C# they talk about.

More, the Framework they wrote for base project is in C# and can't be used in Visual Basic .NET project (it use unmanaged code).

So conclusion to that is : If you want to write DirectX programs, use C#. It is written clearly in Microsoft DirectX SDK 9.0c : "Don't use this foolish language called Visual Basic .NET, I have no time to write any line of code in this toy language".

"VB is absolutely a core part of our bet and strategy" Soma said. Well, not in all divisions of Microsoft !!!

This is why I'm VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY ANGRY (I used Ctrl+V this time J))

Richard Clark
MVP .NET

NB : I will not talk about versions numbers of DirectX 9.0c assemblies. Look at them, you'll have some fun!!!

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Posted: vendredi 6 août 2004 09:13 par richardc

Commentaires

richardc a dit :

Raison de plus pour utiliser C# !! Ok je prends la porte ;-)
# août 6, 2004 11:52

richardc a dit :

While I'm not quite getting the anger part, I'm completely with the MDX team on this point. The whole MDX class library is crippled with inconsistencies... I'd rather see the MDX updated now, while it is not widely used, than seeing these inconsistencies for a long time.

Just my two cents :)
# août 6, 2004 12:59

richardc a dit :

If you append all stupid things you can read since the beginning of .NET framework
you could sincerly say that it is a "Toy Framework". I would prefer have fun in programming in .net rather than reading this king of things... :-$
# août 6, 2004 13:26

richardc a dit :

Big deal ! Switch to C# and stop whining...
# août 6, 2004 22:42

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# août 7, 2004 00:04

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# août 7, 2004 00:08

richardc a dit :

Reflector might ease your pain :-)
# août 7, 2004 09:15

richardc a dit :

I agree with you Mr Richard, something is going wrong. Here is my explaination (sorry I have no blog)

According to what I have been reading since I begun to learn vb.net, I always saw "Don't use Visual Basic .NET, use C#" (but never "Don't use C#, use Visual Basic .NET")

* HOW? *
Yes! You can find real proofs on how c# is far superior on vb.net:
- because it is using "}" instead of "End If"
- because C# is faster to write than v.i.s.u.a.l.b.a.s.i.c.d.o.t.n.e.t
- because there is the C letter in C#
- because there are the evil "visual" and "Basic" in Visual Basic.net (I even wonder if some see a small 6 in place of the ".")
- because developpers are ashemed to post their sources in vb.net

* WHY? *
I think, that kind of tickling is typicall behavior of developpers who need a way to be convinced that they are smarter, better, faster...
And this is not sooooo important after all, you know... children :)


-> Well that's what I thought... since I read your post, if even MS teams have belived that: that's really an issue

* OpenMinds please *
Dear smarter, better, faster... C# developpers,
If you think a little in the "real life" world (you know eating, buying...) C# is just a puppet to grab as much as Java developpers as possible.
That's why C# "is better than" but not "is better than vb.net"
* /OpenMinds thanks *

Looks less smart in a couple of seconds, no ? :)

Thoes marketing guys of MS are damn gooooood, (If Bush would have them, he would have found plenty of WMD)
they made C# so nice and clean than event their own devs belive that vb.net is a joke.
I don't bother for the future, there is a big share of vb6 devs that haven't still make the move to .net, a big part of them would not exchange theirs "End If" nor accept a mini-dotnet-framework, and marketing knows that

So Mr Richard I'am also vERY vERY vERY vERY vERY vERY ANGRY against all these dumb sheeps (I Ctrl+V only some parts as you see) Lets just make it loud & clear for all

A simple vb and vb.net veteran developper
(who thinks that C# has the right to live too)
(hummm: a .Net framework beta tester indeed)
# août 10, 2004 15:01

richardc a dit :

Waaaahhhh!

VB is a language used for learning basic logic skills and allows non-developers can make simple programs. VB.NET has inherited some functionality of the .NET platform, but at the end of the day it's still the bastard son. Deal with it, Frenchie.
# août 10, 2004 21:05

richardc a dit :

g4 you say:

"VB.NET has inherited some functionality of the .NET platform"

tell me which functionnality it has NOT herited, have a closer look, just to be able to speak about something you know

people who tell that kind of things cannot be serious programmers
# août 11, 2004 10:23

richardc a dit :

Why don't you switch to C# ?
Is it that much of an effort ?
# août 12, 2004 23:47

richardc a dit :

> tell me which functionnality it has NOT herited,
> have a closer look, just to be able to speak about something you know
> people who tell that kind of things cannot be serious programmers

How can you say that ? This means you don't even know it yourself ! Come on... And by the way, if C# is a puppet to attract Java developers... Why is the BCL coded in C# ? What about this : VB.NET is about attracting old fashion VB6 developers to use the .NET platform instead of leaving them with the choice between sticking with VB6 or switch to C# ? Please...

I for one, If I had to choose between VB.NET and C#, would choose C# for the unsafe code, the operator overloading and the using keyword. I also don't like VB.NET for its verbosity, but it is a matter of taste. Really.

Because it IS an endless debate, maybe you should read this :
http://blogs.msdn.com/csharpfaq/archive/2004/03/11/87816.aspx

And PLEASE, don't try to change minds of programmers with this kind of sentences typical of know-it-all... nor try to prove C# programmers they're wrong. They'll do likewise for you.

Ah and one last note : Don't argue with the unsafe choice. I know unsafe is unsafe, this is why it is called unsafe... :)
# août 13, 2004 03:39

richardc a dit :

Matt> in my job I have no time to loose, I tried java, it tooks me too long. I can't afford loosing even a month of coding. Migration to vb.net is much much easier if you come from VB6 (that's annoying for the aristocracy of coders who never consider vb6 as a programming language)

Jay> my post was ironic, I did get information about the differences, that's the first reason of my reaction. the second reason is that more and more c# coders are really considering vb.net as a bad language. Furthremore they are communicating with that, trying to find the smallest detail to prove it - that's &^$%$ me off now

Does these differences make vb.net a bad language? of course not. For the most common situations (u know: managing customers, contracts... with a database :) ), c# and vb.net are equivalent to setup a solution

I agree that, in some specific situations, c# has some advantages! of course I agree look:
(Orion un indice pour un scoop supplementaire sur un inconvenient de vb.net: essaie de serialiser une classe sans ses evenements en vb.net)

I agree, I agree with u, but people telling "vb.net is a bad language" "vb.net is for dummies", "the bastard son"... and so on, have no credibility to me

The problem is not technical, it is cultural (I feel it when I help c# coders)
# août 13, 2004 20:11

richardc a dit :

Quote Jay:
I for one, If I had to choose between VB.NET and C#, would choose C# for the unsafe code, the operator overloading and the using keyword. I also don't like VB.NET for its verbosity, but it is a matter of taste. Really.


Uhmm... the "using" keywork in C# is the same as the "Imports" keyword in VB .NET. You should really learn about VB before spreading out false rumors about something you don't know anything about.

I don't consider myself an expert on programming like some of these people claim to be. I use C (on UNIX), C#, and VB .NET, and the language depends on what kind of program you wish to create. If you need a program such as a calculator which won't be doing many tasks, use VB. It's easier. If you need something that does intensive stuff, such as parsing every message on a chat server, or even to be able to handle 10, 000 users connecting to it, you're going to want to use C, because it's a low level language compared to C++, C#, java and VB which are all too slow for IRC servers (Even though there are some IRC servers created from languages other than C).

If you don't stop learning about new languages and new technologies, you'll just get oudated and nobody will ever want to hire you do create anything. It's pretty fucking simple to learn a new language once you at least know how to create hello world programs from C, C++, Java, VB.NET (console), C# (console), perl, etc. So stop being lazy and learn all the languages you can possibly learn.
# septembre 6, 2004 23:26

richardc a dit :

"The DirectX(r) Team is pleased to announce the final release of DirectX 9.0 SDK Update (Summer 2004)!"

Says it all as far as renaming stuff goes. I hate when people use beta stuff and doesn't understand.

Regarding VB/C# .. well, get over it. One doesn't do serious software with VB anyway so if MDX doesn't work, who cares.
# septembre 15, 2004 17:13

richardc a dit :

MT: Please learn the C# syntax before saying things like this. The using keyword has two meaning in C# : One is the same as the Import keyword in VB, the other one is a shortcut for using the IDisposable interface.

I don't think that preferring a language over an other is anything like outdating. Especially when languages like C# and VB.NET are very similar. Don't get me wrong, I don't even discourage anyone from using VB.NET, I just think that when learning C# and then being able to understand VB.NET is far better than the opposite.

And no, C is not "better" for intensive stuff. To me, it is just better for loosing time during development, or because there is no other choice (like embedded stuff, but this is changing). It is a matter of choice : I privilege stability over performance. It is a bet on the future, Moore's law is around and will stay around for quite some time.

Please, again, try hard not flame anything or anyone before you really understand what you're saying.
# septembre 20, 2004 14:38

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# octobre 11, 2004 10:38

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# octobre 11, 2004 22:37

richardc a dit :

1. Manged directx is is still in the fledgling stages. So it it is likely to happen that significant (incompatibe) changes are made. (better make them now than later when everybody uses it, now you can optimize later you'd have to build some overhead around to to assure downward compatibility). So I prefer to live with those (so far easy to handle) changes in the sdk versions for now instead of getting a bloated sdk at the end.
2. It really does not matter what language you use for programming with mdx. It should be no problem at all to convert the samples and your code between c# and vb.net. Infact there are tools that do that for you. And language syntax (especially the one of c#) can be learned in notime. If it is a problem for you to utilize another language you might be in trouble.
# octobre 13, 2004 01:15

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# octobre 13, 2004 07:54

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# octobre 13, 2004 07:56

richardc a dit :

Vive VB !
# octobre 18, 2004 22:43

richardc a dit :

I think you all suck.
# octobre 24, 2004 22:13

richardc a dit :

I agree with the above.

You're all talking pointless rubbish and its interesting to see the people with the most know-it-all attitudes are the ones that have the most spelling errors and grammatical issues in their posts.

Its even more annoying to seeing crap when its very poorly written.
# mars 10, 2005 13:52

richardc a dit :

Its quite annoying to see people say things like VB.NET is not a good thing to write in, and that you should "Just switch to C#"

I use BOTH C# and VB.net, and most of the time i find vb.net a lot easier to code in, as I have coded in vb for "ages" and have the syntax of vb too well worked in to even bother switching alltogether..

But you dont see me talk bad about C#, its a great language, but I would rather not beeing forced into using C#, just because some people think that VB.NET is "just a toy"

Its far from "Just a toy" and I some of the stuff I've written in VB.NET are quite high end solutions..

All those people who talk bad about VB.NET are just managing to do one thing, and that is giving VB.NET an even worse reputation than it has already, and 99% of it is unwarranted!
# mars 14, 2005 23:16

richardc a dit :

I think that is the reason. People have used Visual basic for so long that it is just plain hard to change habits. It's not easy to start learning another language when you've invested so much time learning VB. I started with VB 3.0 but I love VB.NET, C#, etc., etc. I use them all with their own purpose.

VB.NET IS NOT a bad language to code in. Come on, you can look all over the net and find plenty of great samples coded in VB.NET.

While compatibility is an issue from 9.0b to 9.0c with DirectX, I'm just happy to have the flexibility of .NET to do what I want to with any of the languages. And if I have to make some modifications (9.0b to 9.0c again) it's annoying but so be it!
# mars 25, 2005 02:19

richardc a dit :

The pro C# guys really like to bash VB.net.... reminds me of LINUX guys who totally discount Microsoft, when we're really developing rapid solutions in record time!

I am having alot of fun developing VB/MDX. I get decent quality and speed if I optimize properly. If I needed lightning quick speed, I'd use C++ in the first place for the engine but I find that prototyping and making tools (map editor, etc) to be extremely easy in MDX/VB.net.

In other areas, I use VB.net for my employees product (security company), it looks pretty damn good and it's quite fast, considering how complex it is.

The reason I use VB is that I'm tried of looking at brackets {{ {lol} {} {lol}}} but yes that's only my taste.

To compare C# and VB.net syntax is one thing, it's just an opinion, which doesn't mean much unless you have a major ego problem.

Anybody who says C# is better than VB.net should put 2 coders against each other and see who develops a stable application in the least amount of time.

THAT would be a good comparison.
# avril 26, 2005 20:24

richardc a dit :

My agreement to Paul.
Its faster to write safe VB-Code than writing it in C# or C++. I wrote software in both (and a lot more languages, like Pascal, ASM) for over 20 years and its a graet effort to have all the usefull things like inheriting, intellisense and more in one package...
I´m a little bit angry about Microsofts tactic with VB/MDS too and I hope that MS will supply VB.NET/MDX in a later version again...better...bigger...faster... :) that´s what all we want (!)
# mai 6, 2005 12:56
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